silence... silence... sshhh Demitar has joined #pygame. silence... i'm freakin' bored chakie: Then you have two options: code or play nethack. =) nethack? have't played it for ages i played through angband a few yers ago though :) a multiplayer nethack would be king there is crossfire some problems though with synchronization. would essentially create a mud, and muds suck xblast too and soon hopefully forgehack :) yeah Demitar has quit #pygame. illumen has quit #pygame. CrashChaos has joined #pygame. korruptor has joined #pygame. hey, ho! morning guys Howdy how's life progressing? Slowly... :) oh.. Code Rainbow seems to have gone to the state of a regular alias for W32/Nimda-A Chakie: got your mail about icons. I'll see what I can do. We also need one for the commander IIRC (a star) so I'll get on the case... Crash: Got your email re: status bar. Not looked at the attachment yet. Will probably start on this after the GFX bible is out in some form... korruptor: well, the current icon is ok, maybe just recolorize it a little bit? ok cool.. I've redone the minimap meanwhile.. just in case you checked out early yesterday you better update :) Yeah, what I was thinking. Crash: I checked out about 9pm last night, although I'll update again as a matter of course... 9pm is too early.. I've finished the new minimap at about 1am :) Chakie: no probs matey! I'll look at doing a slightly different shape as well to make things clearer? Not sure... the old one was killing the framerate for 250x250maps to a mere 0,5fps! I'll do the star icon for commanders as well, then I'll probably get back to the roads... now it's updated every 250ms.. therefore the rectangle in the minimap is a bit sluggish Not surpsrising... --> korruptor can't spell today either... david is making progress as well.. we'll be able to merge our stuff somewhen next week having the first client/server communications :) Nice. Should be fun... yeah.. I'm eagerly awaiting the first moving unit ;) i think just another color would be enough. just so that the player knows which unit is "in charge" I can't test atm as PyGame isn't out for OS X and I've not had the time to build my Debian box... Probably won't for a while either... --> CrashChaos still doesn't believe this ticking synchronization works out.. but we'll see Chakie: k, np! :) Is there anything else you need this week? hmm, no, my wishlist is empty for now :) Nice... but if you really *want* i sure *can* come up with fancy stuff... :) :) I've no doubt! ;-P hm.. should buildings be rect selectable? I don't think so ? Eh? when you draw a selection rectangle to select some units.. and you include a building in it.. do you want the building to be selected as well or only the units? I would want it included, I could always do a ctrl-click to unselect the building later... I'd expect the normal behaviour of a rectangle selection to grab everything under it... no.. not everything.. trees f.ex. are not rect selectable right now..doesn't make much sense CrashChaos: can you do anything with a building? chakie: when you selected it? sure.. but only if you select the building alone to get its details displayed.. like production icons for new units etc oh I like that new object hierarchy.. you can change stuff almost as fast as thinking about it :) then it does not make sense to include it in rect selections at all only units that can receive *orders* should be included that's exactly what I think when I do a rect selection i don't want to be forced to remove objects manually from the selection and if it's f.ex. a defense building we can again include it in the rect selection.. no problems there You've answered your own question then. If it's relevant, include it... Which was pretty much the premise I was coming from... If it does nothing, ignore it... yeah.. but most buildings won't be relevant to rect selections. so now I disabled it for all buildings and we can re-enable it for certain buildings what should a building fo if selected and ordered to move? what if a building *and* a unit is selected and both ordered to move? then of course only the unit moves.. but if I got a defense building f.ex.. and I'm under attack.. I'll hastily select units and the building and click on an enemy.. and everything will attack that enemy err*.. of course we might come in with the idea of moving buildings as well :) Floating ones... sure.. flying buildings are no problem at all.. just some hassle for the artists.. I'll just add in dict[MINE].flying = 1 and you'll have to make a whole new gfx ;P this is a fairly interesting article (linux in hollywood): http://cgw.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Articles&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=118664 radio news: next wave of terrorist attacks suspected for sep,22nd gt3 has joined #pygame. korruptor: did you get my mail already? how are you going to do that animation thing? sup Crash: the easiest way (for Janet) would be seperate files. Otherwise she's gonna find she'll have one frame a pixel to far to the left in the strip, or other such none-sense... And yes, PNG is preferred... --> korruptor really does need to learn to spell... k.. doesn't matter to me.. we'll just end up with a *huge* amount of files in the images/ dir then.. might be better to create some more dirs then I'll recommend in the bible what the naming scheme and DIR tree should look like given what we know... --> CrashChaos is just reading an article on gamasutra on cheating in RTS games and can only laugh at it.. our design kills all these cheating methods totally efficient :) CC: don't underestimate the IQ of cheaters... :) chakie: I didn't say eom is uncheatable.. just those methods mentioned in that article aren't going to work I mean eom is open-source... you just need an editor to cheat :) :) amaya is weird The browser? yeah Agreed. It's fscking weird... :P ok 5:41am, gnight :p gt3 has quit #pygame. Crash: I've responded to your reply, thanks for clearing up some of my issues... korruptor: yeah.. I've already replied to your reply :p MuHaHa any knows a good article on client synchronization? google isn't really helpful there i'd check gamasutra or gamedev already did nothing of much use there chakie has quit #pygame. Crash: you still here? yes.. I'm just doing a hell lot of benchmarking on my mom's comp Laters #pygame... korruptor has quit #pygame. well.. then not PythonX has joined #pygame. hi hi PythonX a post to the mailing list should end up there immediatly right? yeah.. might sometimes take longer.. but usually it gets back to you in a few minutes and no.. I haven't seen your posting there :) hmm ill try again brb CrashChaos has quit #pygame. CrashChaos has joined #pygame. re CrashChaos has quit #pygame. CrashChaos has joined #pygame. pff.. dga isn't really useable yet erm why not? because it crashed my X and left a severe graphic error in my con so that I was forced to reboot nasty indeed.. btw you didnt see my posting yet did you although.. that only happened _after_ I quit no.. didn't get your post yet --> PythonX is away: time to eat chakie has joined #pygame. Naytheyus has joined #pygame. okay who can help me or who is willing to help with a please now we're getting closer :) lol okay i would like to try python & pygame but im having trouble installing pygame gee.. yet another arbitrary command execution bug in IIS.. and Code Rainbow already uses a bunch of those.. how can anyone still dare using IIS ?? Naytheyus: what python installation.. what OS.. source or binary pygame ? sorry, win98, py2.2 pyg1.2 should be a snap? aren't the binaries on pygame.org for windows? yes.. but only for 2.0 and 2.1 not really. pygame install will not let me choose install directory. using the full .exe install that .exe install is not for 2.2 afaik use 2.1 instead this is 4 pygame1.2 pygame-1.2.win32-py2.1.exe <-- I guess that's why it says 2.1 here thats the one nah.. pygame 1.2 is clear.. it's your python version.. 2.2 != 2.1 .. there might be something different for the paths no real reason to use 2.2 over 2.1 afaik does it pickup what python ver. u already have or some binary changes between 2.1 and 2.2 no.. it tries to pick up python 2.1.. okay you'll either have to use the source or downgrade to 2.1 .. or maybe you can hack the registry to fake a 2.1 afaik the installer gets the python installation dir from the registry got ya if you change that to say 2.1 instead of 2.2 it might work (and you best set it back to 2.2 to not mess up your existing python installation) I haven't tried that yet.. but it might work chakie: what framerate do you get in civil? 1 fps chakie: by accident? :) thanx for the help. by the way what is afaik afaik = as far as i know cool by design. nothing happes faster then once per second. the server sends updates that are applied once per second well I don't mean the serverside fps.. I mean the screen refresh rate.. or do you synch these? so r u all here developing Naytheyus: yep, every now and then CrashChaos: fps has really no meaning for us chakie: ic.. bad luck for me then I guess :( CrashChaos: we do a froced repaint every second if something has changed ? cool, let get familliar with this (new to me) environment, and if u got room. show u what i can do --> CrashChaos just adjusted his scrollrate to the framerate to fake about 5 fps differences *g* thankx 4 the halp once again Naytheyus has quit #pygame. it'll get really interesting to synch the drawing framerate with the serversided calculation framerate why must it be sync:ed? because otherwise your unit is displayed at position x/y but the server calculations think it's at a/b one reason to keep it all on the server side. that's also why our server runs 5 seconds ahead :) well we do keep everything on the server side.. absolutely everything actually.. but we can't let the server run ahead :) why not? because we're doing a realtime game and if the user sends a unit somewhere else it has to move.. now.. not 5 secs + latency later why isn't there any command latency? don't all rts games have it too? well there is.. but a rts tries to hide it by prediction and extrapolation i mean real latency that the player too knows of? is it not a little bit unrealistic if the units reavts *immediately*? well when did you last play an rts? if the enemy attacks you do you want your units to move or not? i've once looked at C&C, and I played through Dune 2 5-6 years ago and in both games a unit starts moving as soon as you tell it to move of course they should move, but at a short time penalty. Otherwise what's the point of a flank/rear attack if it doesn't incur some problem for the other player? which is unrealistic :) huh? flank attack? what's wrong with that? that's got nothing to do with when the unit's starting to move yep, as you have a great advantage if attacking from the rear, as it takes the other player some time to get his/her orders through to the unit and order it to turn around and return fire more strategic elements that way otherwise your entire army can turn around in no time at all, and ther is no use in trying to outflank naaah but, i won't argue my point, sorry for that that's not what I meant this is still granted assuming your unit is waiting for an enemy in the north it does however give you a few interesting problems though (lag etc) and you attack from the south.. then I select my waiting unit and click on your unit your unit starts to turn south *immediately* yes so it turns fully 180 degrees in, say 2 seconds? and that's what I actually want as a player yeah but then there's no use in trying to outflank! remember that eom is working with single units not like civil if i spend a great deal of time sneaking all my units behind yours, do a full assault i expect to be able to reap some benefirst from it civil has single units too yes.. that's why my unit are standing at the border.. you're walking around them and destroy houses and supplies until my units reach you of course, but that's not outflanking, that's just atatcking where the enmy isn't at the moment :) horrible pselling but i'm no expert on modern RTS games, so you are probably right yeah.. outflanking in the sense of the old fashioned mediocre times is not going to work in eom as we're not using massive armies! there are mostly one on one fights.. and unless you sneak up at someone and attack from a 1m distance it won't matter from which side you're attacking heh.. neither am I an expert.. I just think the difference comes from the types of our games civil is more oriented to heavy strategy.. that's why outflanking makes sense.. eom is more of an action & fun game hmm, think about a heavy tank it has its gun pointing forward we don't have tanks :) if i attack from the rear i should get quite a few "free shots" at it before it has turned to face me imagine then a section of archers you still don't get me.. the formation of archers turns even more slowly I just want to have instant feedback for the user that his commands are executed.. no, but no point in arguing about this issue :) that does not mean the tank's going to turn around and shoot instantly opticnoise has joined #pygame. good morning all! evening :) hehe wow, Artiste is 2MB? hardcorelamer has joined #pygame. wtf is artiste? NeuroMorphus has quit #pygame. PythonX has quit #pygame. PythonX has joined #pygame. Demitar has joined #pygame. yo --> Demitar just doubled his ram... yay! =) ShredWheat has joined #pygame. hi pete heya do you know a good page about network synchronization for rts games? I haven't found any good stuff on the 3g's no, nothing specific. at one point gamasutra had an awesome article about the networking for the multiplayer xwing games. but its gone i remember chatting with someone in here once about some ideas yeah.. but I wanted to read up some more stuff before going to implement anything you thinking peer/peer or some sort of server/client ? server/client how "secure" are you looking to make it? that's mainly the part that will make it trickier I'm gonna have dumb clients all calculation serversided heh, it's all coming back to me now, the stuff i've chatted with earlier he pete just the guy i need I still got troubles completly understanding the concepts behind the clientsided prediction and how to synch it with the actual server replies crash: i believe the 'best' solution is that the server sends each units 'commands' and all clients and server play the game out the same. of course, i've never implemented anything, so who knows? to keep it more cheatproof, the server just sends the commands for units visible to the player i have some code which doesnt do what i want with me and segfaults on ShredWheat's pythonx: what code is this? what is the code supposed to do? the code i send you earlier ah, the hopalong stuff? hopalong?? i guess so :-) hopalong? I thought that was that 1mio pixel thingy? hmm, my faster version is crashing on you? ShredWheat: it's not the hopalong :) wtf is a hopalong? can i dcc it to you pete? yeah, go for it that was kasplat with the hopalong ah, sorry pythonx, i had you confused... too many things out there "not working" for me to keep straight i guess :-/ its forgiven "no module named board" heh....a new one i'm also missing square and stone "Bother," said Pooh as he struggled with the computer. "It never does quite what I want." "I wish Christopher Robin were here." pythonx: ah, ok, i have something running now.. what exactly am i looking for? the mouse cords echo'd the coords never change, they seem to just "stick" with whatever the first value is? erm yes i dont want that if that's the problem, i know the easy fix :] ermm well?? need to call pygame.event.pump() in your loop there. the state of input devices (like mice, keyboard, joystick) only gets updated when pygame/SDL talks to the windowmanager its running on... oh ok...theres more problems though this happens automatically when you make the usual calls to get events from pygame, but in your case you aren't working with events (or at least not yet...) so calling pygame.event.pump() will get everything synced up again heh, ok, what's next? --> CrashChaos waits for PythonX to finish :) take a # when i use a BIG image for the square(board) it crashes CharsChoas: dont hold your breath hmm, is there a nice big sample image i can test with? ill dcc it or just anything bigger than a certain size? --> ShredWheat waits the xfer... ..this is a big one :] it should go over the data/square_wood1.jpg yeah its a foto from a digi-cam from a friend of mine can i just change it in the "file_names_images" ? dont worry its not him on it :) thats an option as well yep.. it crashes, let me see who/what/when/where (and sometimes why) Crash had a hind...what did you, changed added a pixel to the surface or so?? yeah.. the segfault happens during the blitting in that nested loop.. in makeBoard... when you make the initial surface that stuff gets blit on larger it worked hmm, i've a feeling its the gargantuan image size.. let me check here.. yay, debian will be up-to-date this week! python or pygame? up-to-date? the kde stuff?? pygame ok haha, btw, think how large a 18k by 13k image is.... over 900 MB I wonder why it worked then after I made it even larger *g* yeah, surprisingly, it seems to "create" the image ok, i figured that'd be where it crashed it crashes when blitting the last image in the 2nd row for me. yeah.. same for me.. but make the target surface larger :) anyways, pythonx, a MUCH better way to do this, is instead of creating a huge offscreen surface like this, just blit this image to the screen multiple times when you need to draw ermm but i want to scale it well, you can scale the single image, and then blit that multiple times or, if having a clean background is easiest, scale the original image first, then create the background yeah but its not the same :)....besides it should work well, it certainly shouldn't crash. but its coming from inside SDL. i'm not sure why, perhaps some sort of overflow hmm, so i can take my case up to the supreme sdl court then heh, you can.. but i know they'll say "don't make images so big". it's their typical response to this scenario :] hehe... what if i told them i have a screen witch runs 18k x 13k ? crash, you are right, it does run fine with a bigger image yeah.. that's why I told PythonX to wait for you.. cause I was lost at that point :) but I'm satisfied to see that you didn't solve the issue in the expected 5 secs :) hmm, well it's definitely SDL causing the crash, but i'm sure its because some number is getting clobbered by the big sizes.. SDL unfortunately uses "short" in many places. but, i don't see that would have an immediate effect, since it's still smaller than 32k next number? :) artiste crashes for me, non-stop wha? its rock solid fo rme pythonx: well, it _shouldn't_ crash, but it does. best bet is to scale it down before blitting into a big background ok besides, it'll be much faster that way too as soon as the game starts (long ass time) the first mouse click i do exists the game there should definately be a way to skip that spinning hand you get a spinning hand before the first mouse click? maybe changing the image format... well... first mouse click of the actual game, the part with drawing ah.. btw, "S" stops the spinner i click on some colors... exit, click on the canvas, exit ok hardcore, that's really strange. does it crash, or raise an exception? paste output to you? noprob hah, you're not using pygame-1.2 just comment the circle line out, it'll work, maybe a little uglier 1.0 oh, ancient. well it might not even run without the circle commented it runs as expected no idea what the circle command would do draw.circle() ? any way to get rid of the word in the upper right? kind of makes it easy to 'guess' not really. you're "supposed" to have 2 displays :p read the "artiste.html" wtf ShredWheat: is there any better way than a killall to exit artiste? 2 video cards? hmm, well the usual "QUIT" should work. running fullscreen it isn't as easy as clicking the "X" in the border... try the usual alt-f4 ? otherwise go to the "ref" screen and choose quit game. then you can get to the very first screen, where you can quit the program ugly.. sorry but that quitting method sux :) well, you can have it not start in fullscreen mode --> CrashChaos doesn't like artiste.. maybe it's right what people say.. you ougtha be drunk to enjoy that game sheesh, has anyone even read the docs that come with it... it's a party game i would make it so a key hides the secret word, and the timer doesn't start until you click it i read the docs, didn't see the 2 tv things though ShredWheat: a big lesson I learnt from YaSS: no one ever reads any docs there's a section in the docs called "Setting Up" where it goes into detail about using two screens and that jaz.. yass has docs now? ahwell, perhaps one day i'll make it work better for single users hardcorelamer: it always had :p not when you dcc'ed it to me yass has great docs make it for one computer! artiste crashes on me finding people with pygame is hard enough, finding pygame users with dual head capabilities is probably impossible maybe.. i made it in a couple nights for a party at my house. everyone who played it there liked it, so :P pythonx, get pygame-1.2 or edit paint.py yeah, probably cuz you have a 90" hdtv and a 20" OLED laptop open-source motto "Runs fine for me" ShredWheat: how long's the queue for the number I've drawn? it's so hard to see those virtually standing in front of me :) hardcorelamer: it runs but crashes the second round pythonx, "runs fine for me" hardcore: yep, that's my rig crash: what do you mean? what queue? --> CrashChaos had to draw that number for his question and is waiting for it to be called :) f' you for having OLED displays before they go on sale to the general public haha, actually, any standard laptop computer will have everything you need (assuming you have a television) check me out, my laptop has 170 degree viewing angle, and weighs 0.009 ounces and i put lunix on it the _real_ opensource motto: if ya don't like it, don't complain! haha who's complaining, i'm giving valuable feedback or, if you don't like it, make it better --> CrashChaos still can't figure out that synch stuff crash, you know C++ much? if so, dig around in that FreeCNC, see what they're doing anyone seen bob3.0 lately? hm.. yeah.. that's an idea.. but I'm generall struggling when even thinking about that.. I mean I got two clients.. with units seeing each other.. C1 moves his unit.. at t1 the server knows this.. and at t2 C1 and C2 see a moving unit.. while C1 is staring at an immovable unit during t2 hardcore: haven't seen or heard from him :[ crash, just make sure that (t1-t2) approaches 0 hardcorelamer: oh yeah.. if that isn't helping me.. you're gonna help me speeding up the internet by about 10000% ? yeah? cool thanks hmmm ShredWheat: is it my bad c++.. or why does my grep not find any 'socket' in the whole freecnc source? there are some articles on gamedev.net about network BS grep might be called 'sock' i know.. I browsed through gamedev and gamasutra the whole day long.. nothing valuable no sock either what's the command line? ?? crash: i dunno, i haven't really looked at freecnc for net stuff ShredWheat: it doesn't seem to have any net support are you sure you're grepping correctly? perhaps grep for "recv" hardcorelamer: grep -i sock `find .`.. I'm pretty confident I know how to grep no recv either or perhaps they are using some other higher-level C++ networking library? maybe something like "Socket"